working4christ2

passus · #2 Aug 10, '11, 11:08 am

God doesn't interact with the world in a way as directly as one might be quick to think. It's not as though he says, "OK...I'm going to make it so that these strangers to one another, John and Jane, meet up at this exact place and time and introduce themselves and fall in love so they can marry as an answer to Jane's prayer for a husband." A scenario like that of course poses several impediments to free will and reflects a very strictly human-centered understanding of theology and God's operation.

I think an accessible way of looking at it is that in answering prayers, God works in subtle ways by providing us with tools, if you will, which we can use to make whatever needs to happen, happen. The faithful individual has the choice to cooperate with God's gifts in bringing about an answer to his or her prayer and so God's intervention never obstructs free will but nonetheless has taken place.

As for your question about praying for the conversion of others, I also think that it is very important to keep in mind: and I don't find this beyond reason--that there is an order of God's providence to this universe. Ultimately, all things belong to and come from God and find rest and satisfaction in ultimate good. Therefore, I think it is also reasonable to say that the faithful will find favorable answers to their prayers so far as the desires expressed in the prayer align with God's divine vision...not so much because God has intervened, but because the universe plays out that way. God wills all men to be saved. He provides every individual with all the tools he needs to come to know and and be saved by him, too.

Here's what prayer is not: God cannot be coerced by prayer. He cannot be convinced. Prayer's don't change God's mind or vision or "predetermined" plan. (That plan being another topic of discussion unto itself...)

I hope that helps lead you to answer to your question, if it doesn't answer it. Maybe I just made it even more confusing.

Thoughts?

pm2222 · #3 Aug 10, '11, 11:39 am

That did help a lot! One other question...how does God protect us if we pray for that? And also, so if we pray for people to receive God"s strength like when they are sick, will God offer these people the tools or mindset required to have strength in order to get through what they are going through and they will have the chance to accept it or not?

Humupower · #4 Aug 10, '11, 11:55 am

God can protect us in many ways. He can protects us by leading us out of danger before danger occurs. He can protect us through direct intervention - i.e. someone gets in a car accident, they are thrown 50 feet from their car, they land head first on pavement, and they get up with no wounds, not even a scratch. He can also protect us through the inentional and accidental actions of others.

I don't think God would ever force his protection onto someone unwillingly, but I don't think people are usually expected to accept or reject it. I think that you can always reject anything that God offers you, if you really want to, but I think many times there is passive compliance.

He might give someone the gifts/guidance necessary to be healed, and most people don't specifically say "yes" but since they do want to get better they follow through the normal course of actions.

PJM · #5 Aug 10, '11, 11:59 am

Quote:

=pm2222;8228733]When we pray for strength or wisdom or help, how does God give us this strength or courage or wisdom/knowledge without interfering with free will? And if we pray for someone else to have knowledge of God, how does he answer these prayers without interferring with their free will?

REALLY GREAT QUESTION. Thanks,

First, God answers all prayers. BUT No and Not now are among the possible replies.

ANY and ALL prayers that are for OUR spiritual betterment are answerded in the Affirmative. WHY/ Because in this instance God's Will and desire for us conforms to our own desire and will.

In doing this God is simply granting what WE ASK from Him. It is NOT an issue in any way of over-riding our freewill BECASUE our "freewill" has iniated the action. The Biblical example of this is Solomon, the son of king David who asked God for "Wisdom" , not long-life, or wealth. ect.

This applies also for our prayer request for OTHERS to be granted Wisdom and Understanding. God NEVER forces His Grace upon us IF we are opposed to it. Always the receiving party must FIRST consent to accept these graces.

God Bless you,
Pat

pm2222 · #6 Aug 10, '11, 12:09 pm

Hey PJM, Thanks alot! that was a great answer! i have another question that i asked on another thread that I thought you might be able to answer. Did God need sinners in order to crucify Jesus? Like without sinners Gods plan would have never been completed with Jesus dying so did God need these sinners? Sorry i just have not been able to completely understand this yet but if you have any answers that could help me please let me know! THanks!

passus · #7 Aug 10, '11, 1:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pm2222

That did help a lot! One other question...how does God protect us if we pray for that? And also, so if we pray for people to receive God"s strength like when they are sick, will God offer these people the tools or mindset required to have strength in order to get through what they are going through and they will have the chance to accept it or not?

Well, what are we asking for when we pray for someone who is sick or ailing? We ask that all involved, but especially the sick individual, remain psychologically and mentally fortified in the face of their suffering and a potentially upsetting outcome. We're asking that the suffering they do experience may be meritorious for them or other souls in need. We're also asking that the mind of the doctors who tend to a sick patient may be enlightened and proactive in treatment, if treatment is possible. So, yes, God similarly equips the individuals involved with what they need in answering such a prayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pm2222

Did God need sinners in order to crucify Jesus? Like without sinners Gods plan would have never been completed with Jesus dying so did God need these sinners? Sorry i just have not been able to completely understand this yet but if you have any answers that could help me please let me know! THanks!

Had man throughout the ages resisted temptation and sin and never fallen, there would be no need for God's salvific plan and so the incarnation, passion, and death of Jesus would be out of place. God never needed sinners in order to save us. Hadn't we sinned in the first place, we would never have been in need of redemption and salvation. Jesus's death has no context in a hypothetical world without sin.

White Peony · #8 Aug 10, '11, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pm2222

When we pray for strength or wisdom or help, how does God give us this strength or courage or wisdom/knowledge without interfering with free will? And if we pray for someone else to have knowledge of God, how does he answer these prayers without interferring with their free will?

Ok, let us say I'm praying for wisdom, God will put me into a situation where I learn wisdom. Or patience. He will put me in a situation where I will learn patience. It's not interferring with free will. You asked for it.

PJM · #9 Aug 10, '11, 3:51 pm

Quote:

=pm2222;8229182]Hey PJM, Thanks alot! that was a great answer! i have another question that i asked on another thread that I thought you might be able to answer. Did God need sinners in order to crucify Jesus? Like without sinners Gods plan would have never been completed with Jesus dying so did God need these sinners? Sorry i just have not been able to completely understand this yet but if you have any answers that could help me please let me know! THanks!

Thanks,

GREAT question. I never heard it expressed like that.

Yes, God being perfect and "All-Knowing" KNEW what would happen before it happen. We can KNOW this because it was Prophised MANY hundreds of years bofore Christ Passion.

Psam 22: 12-18 "Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan [Satan]surround me;
they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
thou dost lay me in the dust of death. Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet -- I can count all my bones -- they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots"

John.19: 24 "so they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be." This was to fulfil the scripture, "They parted my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots."

God is aware of ALL EVIL, past, present and future. God CANNOT cause evil, but does permit it as an opportunity for US to PROVE our Love for Him. We should expect no less as God has Proven His love of and for us.

READ Isaiah 43: verses 7 and 21 and take note of the word "MIGHT."

Send me a PM if you have any other questions and I'll be happy to address them for you.

God Bless you,
Pat

Julia Mae · #10 Aug 11, '11, 1:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by passus

God doesn't interact with the world in a way as directly as one might be quick to think. It's not as though he says, "OK...I'm going to make it so that these strangers to one another, John and Jane, meet up at this exact place and time and introduce themselves...."

Oh, yeah, He does this part all right.

Quote:

and fall in love so they can marry as an answer to Jane's prayer for a husband

But this part is left to them. But then, I happen to know my daughter's favorite foods. If I make them when I know she is hungry, I am not interfering in her free will, I just can pretty much guarantee she is going to eat.

Quote:

I think an accessible way of looking at it is that in answering prayers, God works in subtle ways by providing us with tools, if you will, which we can use to make whatever needs to happen, happen. The faithful individual has the choice to cooperate with God's gifts in bringing about an answer to his or her prayer and so God's intervention never obstructs free will but nonetheless has taken place.

I have no idea what this means.

pm2222: If you are afraid and pray for courage, the Peace of Christ may descend upon you and quiet your fear. You may be directed to (" coincidentally") hear a song or run into a person or read a Hallmark card that suddenly enlightens you. Sometimes God just drops the thought right into your head that you need.

It isn't an abrogation of free will for God to give you exactly what you have asked for. Your part is to provide faith, His part is to act in your best interest.

Pray for as much conversion as you wish. God calls, He can strengthen that call (as He did with me - still took four years) but the individual still has to respond themselves. You can fill a trough through pryer and God can lead them to it - but they have to do all the drinking.

working4christ2

Tuesday, February 19, 2013

Passover ? catholic prayer answered with patrick j miron--How does God answer our prayers?

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