working4christ2

PJM

Quote:

=Anna Scott;9364114]PMJ,

What took you so long? lol.

Anna

Peter HAD TO DIE before a successor was named

Some waits are with "the wait"

The List of Popes
See also POPE, PAPAL ELECTIONS, ELECTION OF THE POPE.
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)

I have the entire list; but you get the idea

God Bless and again we are delighted to have you with us

pat /PJM

Anna Scott · #17 Jun 2, '12, 10:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Peter HAD TO DIE before a successor was named

Some waits are with "the wait"

The List of Popes
See also POPE, PAPAL ELECTIONS, ELECTION OF THE POPE.
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)

I have the entire list; but you get the idea

God Bless and again we are delighted to have you with us

pat /PJM

PJM.
I'm familiar with the list; but I appreciate your sharing. Information is a good thing and your post may benefit others who have not seen the list.

Peace and blessings to you PJM,

Anna

packermann · #18 Jun 3, '12, 9:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don't doubt to the extent that I do. I'm getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or "wolves in sheep's clothing," and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don't feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It's like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he's condemning me (I know it says, "No condemnation for those who are in Christ," but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn't, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don't worry. I don't see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.

Your experience is so similar to mine before I converted to the Catholic Church. Read my testimony http://mycatholictestimony.synthasite.com/

On the surface, the Catholic Church seems to be just one more church calling other churches “heretics” and “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, but that is only true superficially. The original meaning of “heretic” is one who holds to private opinion over against what Christians have believed throughout the ages. Also, unlike other churches who use the word heretic as one who is damned to hell, the Catholic Church teaches that many “heretics” will make it to heaven.

For a person to be culpable for a mortal sin, he must do it willingly and with full knowledge that it offends God. Most people in other churches sincerely do not believe the Catholic Church is the true church. So they are not staying out the Catholic Church with the knowledge of offending God. So God will not hold it against them. In comparison, many Protestant churches, mostly in your Fundamentalist Church, see us Catholics as going to hell. It does not matter to them how sincere we are.

Also, the Catholic Church teaches that anyone who is baptized under the Trinitarian formula is Christian. It does not mean that the baptized person is automatically saved, however. He must avoid committing deliberate mortal sin. But still the yardstick is very objective.
In contrast, Evangelical may boast that they are “absolutely certain” of their salvation. But in my experience as an Evangelical for 12 years and a minister for 3 years, this is simply not true. Most Evangelical Christian are haunted by self-doubt, just as you are. “If the mark of a true Christian is that he is absolutely certain of his salvation, do my doubts mean that that I was never saved in the first place?” “If becoming a Christian means personally asking Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, how do I know that I did not hold back something from Jesus, so that never really accept Him as my Lord?” Their lives are filled with introspection.

Quote:

So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I'm not so sure I do.

That is your problem. You have fallen into the Evangelical trap that a person can and should be absolutely certain of his salvation. And then when you experience doubt, that confirms to you that you were never saved at all.

But Jesus said that, although your faith is necessary for salvation, your faith can be as small as a mustard seed. When a Roman soldier came to Jesus and said “I believe, help my unbelief”, it was enough for Jesus to grant his request. Instead of worrying whether you have enough faith, work on having more love.
[/quote]
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God.
[/quote]
That is what Protestants say. But the Catholic Church teaches that if you are baptized under the Trinitarian formula, you are a Christian. Period. You may be Catholic, Baptist, Seventh-Day Adventist, or Presbyterian, you are still a Christian. It does not mean that all Christians will go to heaven, but they are still Christians. If they retain the mustard-seed faith and avoid mortal sin, they will go to heaven. And the more they seek to grow in love to God and others, the more likely they will avoid mortal sin.

cc42 · #19 Jun 3, '12, 12:34 pm

Sorry I don't know much about Anglican Catholics. Does the church believe in Transubstantiation?

**Contarini** · #20 Jun 3, '12, 4:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don't doubt to the extent that I do. I'm getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or "wolves in sheep's clothing," and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don't feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It's like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he's condemning me (I know it says, "No condemnation for those who are in Christ," but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn't, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don't worry. I don't see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I'm not so sure I do.

I think you've bought into some very destructive and unorthodox ideas about what a Christian is. A Christian is not a person who feels a certain way, and certainly not a person who never doubts or struggles. Whether or not you are a Christian is not between you and God, if by that you mean that it is a private, internal matter in your own consciousness. A Christian is someone who is baptized and continues faithful to the profession they made (or that was made for them) in baptism.

What evangelicals call "being a true Christian," Catholics call "being in a state of grace." In Catholic theology, you can't know for sure (though you can be reasonably confident) whether you are in a state of grace or not. This sounds scary to many folks, but in my opinion it's actually comforting, because it makes the terrifying question you ask in the OP entirely pointless and unnecessary. You don't need to delve into the depths of your soul to figure out if you are a "true Christian" or "have been saved." You look to the death of Jesus on the Cross, the power of the Resurrection, and the sacrament of baptism in which you died and rose again with Jesus. That's how you have been saved. Just keep looking to Jesus, not to your own soul.

By the way, what I'm telling you is not just Catholic and/or Anglican--much of it is taken from Luther, whose views of salvation were quite different from those of modern evangelicals precisely in this way!

Edwin

**Contarini** · #21 Jun 3, '12, 4:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc42

Don't worry all people struggle with their faith. Some of the people who had to struggle the most are the saints becasue God uses struggles to help us conform to the image of His Son. St. Theresa of Avila saw that she was impotent to the power of sin. It is important to recognize that we can do nothing without God. He wants you to recognize that you are totally reliant upon Him. If you thought you were doing everything right then there is actually a problem because we are all sinners.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and is the church, that while is full of sinners like every church, is guided by the Holy Spirit. Christ left the church with seven sacraments in order to help people attain salvation. Unfortunately the Catholic Church is the only church who believe in all seven of the sacraments.

Untrue. The Orthodox also do.

Anglicans practice all the seven rites that Catholics call "sacraments," but not all Anglicans believe they are all sacraments, and Catholics don't think that most of our sacraments are valid, so I won't make a case for us as an exception to your statement. But the Orthodox certainly are.

Edwin

Jesusismyfriend · #22 Jun 4, '12, 11:02 am

Thanks everyone. I am just so used to everyone telling me that being a Christian is a "piece of cake." And there are those who believe they are righteous and they feel more righteous if they are able to put someone else down.
Others may be trying to help, but they say things that confuse me, and try to present God to me as a "big, cuddly teddy bear." I know he is not an "ogre" either. But He won't put up with everything. So I guess that's a lot of my problem. People tell me to believe things about God or Christ that seem to contradict what I believe the Bible is saying.

submariner2 · #23 Jun 4, '12, 1:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

Thanks everyone. I am just so used to everyone telling me that being a Christian is a "piece of cake." And there are those who believe they are righteous and they feel more righteous if they are able to put someone else down.
Others may be trying to help, but they say things that confuse me, and try to present God to me as a "big, cuddly teddy bear." I know he is not an "ogre" either. But He won't put up with everything. So I guess that's a lot of my problem. People tell me to believe things about God or Christ that seem to contradict what I believe the Bible is saying.

jesusismyfriend,

If they teach you that becoming a christian is a piece of cake then they are telling you very much wrong. It is not a piece of cake by any means. God presents us his love and forgiveness and opens the way for a relationship with him through faith and repentance.

He wants us to be changed on the inside as Jesus makes clear. That is not a piece of cake. He wants us to put our undoubting faith in his power to forgive us and love us and always be faithful to us. He wants us to be changed into a person who loves Him with all our heart and mind and our neighbor as ourself.

Who would be so foolish as to call that a piece of Cake? We must desire it above all things yet at the same time be helpless to achieve it. We must depend on Gods help and as long as we doubt if we are a christian we must pray night and day for Gods grace to make us aware of how much we are forgiven, so Gods Love can enter our heart and change us. Paul taught "Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind." God will do that for us if we ask for long enough as we respond to Gods high calling.

It is not for the faint of heart. It is not a piece of cake.

Rob

Sixpence · #24 Jun 4, '12, 7:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don't worry. I don't see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I'm not so sure I do.

Some people can be trusted, others should not be trusted. If you're able to join a church filled with trustworthy people, you are fortunate.
A believer stays a believer in these times the same way anyone's ever become a believer or stayed a believer in any given time. God saves and God sustains. God initially regenerates and indwells at the time when you initially become a newly transformed person in Christ, so it's good to think back to the time when God regenerated and initially indwelt you. Then think ahead a bit to see if God continued to live within you and do the things that He's promised to do. If you only come up with things that you've done and efforts on your own part and there's nothing that can be attributed to God's doing, that's probably the right answer- even if it's a scary one. But if God's done all that while being situated within you, praise God- and ask Him to continue doing some more specific things within you. Otherwise, you might have to ask Him to transform and indwell you first, wait for Him to do that, and then ask Him to do other stuff.
Don't worry, you're not the only one. A lot of people feel the same way, but it's easy to feel embarrassed about bringing these doubts to light in a church setting. Most people spend months or years wrestling with it very privately, and if they ever do talk to someone about it, it's kept within a tight-knit group of people.

Just my opinion, but I am hoping that you can find some Christians that you can trust implicitly- and more than that, I hope you can get involved with a small group that will allow you to work through all of this in that kind of setting. I'm glad that you're putting this out there because most people who feel the same way just say nothing for long periods of time if at all. I'm guessing that quite a few people who are reading this know how you feel from exoerience- if not right now, maybe at some point in the past, and in hindsight it's not uncommon for people to look back on that and wish they had the courage to do what you're doing. I fall in the latter group myself- and while it's not necessary for everyone or anyone else to weigh in, I want you to know that most of us know where you're coming from and are familiar with the difficulty of talking about it.
That being said, it's my opinion that small-group interaction is the best thing you can do in this situation, and this type of forum-based interaction is good practice for getting yourself out there along with a tool that can help you find the best way to get stuff done. What that stuff is can be hard to say, and it can take a good deal of soul-searching to really figure out. That can be a part of the small-group experience too, though- you got people who can help you work through it and figure it out.

FabiusMaximus · #25 Jun 5, '12, 6:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don't doubt to the extent that I do. I'm getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or "wolves in sheep's clothing," and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don't feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It's like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he's condemning me (I know it says, "No condemnation for those who are in Christ," but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn't, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don't worry. I don't see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I'm not so sure I do.

I think all of us (and I am certainly including myself! See the top-right religious description) have been in the state in which you are currently.

It is difficult to be a believer and stay one. While life can be short for some, it can be long for others. And with all that we have thrown at us, it's tempting to consider falling away or to lapse or get distracted by something. But that is part of the challenge. We are called to come back, to try again. And despite the fact that we will obviously fail many, many times, we have an all-forgiving God ready to pick up the mess we've made of ourselves.

My personal opinion is that you are a Christian. One who is obviously struggling, but a Christian nonetheless. That you might be in lapse mode is certainly not a good thing, but it is normal for a Christian to question which denomination is the true Church and whether God is condemning or not.

The only thing I can tell you is that, in everything, just honestly seek God. If you honestly seek God he will meet you where you are. And if you ask for wisdom to lead you to his Church, he'll lead you to it.

Jesusismyfriend · #26 Jun 6, '12, 10:38 am

Thanks and I know everyone is right. I grew up in churches with people who tried to teach me otherwise. I'm not saying they are not saved or will not be, but some (at this point of their lives) kind of serve a "false-God." He is not the same one in the Bible. These people will acknowledge that God is loving, but they don't realize that He has to discipline us because of His love. It's like they have shoved God into a box, and say, "This is how He is. He is all modern, hip and cool. The standards He had years ago have changed." But many parts of the Bible say that God does not change, that He is always the same. We don't need to try to make God perfect; He already is. People's idea of perfect has changed. They think He needs to be "Santa Clause" or something to be loving. The truth was, if God ignored the problems in this world, we would be a lot worse off.

FabiusMaximus · #27 Jun 6, '12, 8:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesusismyfriend

Thanks and I know everyone is right. I grew up in churches with people who tried to teach me otherwise. I'm not saying they are not saved or will not be, but some (at this point of their lives) kind of serve a "false-God." He is not the same one in the Bible. These people will acknowledge that God is loving, but they don't realize that He has to discipline us because of His love. It's like they have shoved God into a box, and say, "This is how He is. He is all modern, hip and cool. The standards He had years ago have changed." But many parts of the Bible say that God does not change, that He is always the same. We don't need to try to make God perfect; He already is. People's idea of perfect has changed. They think He needs to be "Santa Clause" or something to be loving. The truth was, if God ignored the problems in this world, we would be a lot worse off.

I think we all know a lot of people like that.

A lot of people go to the extremes - either to them God is simply all loving and therefore never disciplines his children, or he is only fire and brimstone.

AnneElizabeth · #28 Jun 14, '12, 8:29 pm

I just want to thank the Op for this thread. It has helped me immensely.

May God bless all of you.

tommytom · #29 Today, 10:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

First be ASSURED you NOT alone in what your feeling. Quite possible the HS is TRYING to share a truth with you,

.

Truth can only "BE ONE" per issue.

Does God WANT [and even command] you to be a "Christian" or something of HIS OWN Making; His own Choosing

THAT really is the right question isn't it?

Only One can

WHY?

And this is proveable through the Bible [which happens to be a catholic Book]

Never Ever; not one time can anyone point to authorization from or by God for:

Belief in more than One God [Triune]

Of MORE than only One set of Faith beliefs [see Mt. 28:16-20] THAT IS REALLY THE PROBLEM YOUR STRUGGLING WITH

THOUSANDS of differing belief systems. The CC still has ONE: and only 23 brances connected to the Vine / Christ/ and His CC after 2,000 years.

ALL Holding the same Doctrines and Dogma's.

Or more than Only One Church [the NT alone has more than 100 proofs of this fact]

Or did Christ found more than One Church [today's CC] which can be historically proven to date bak to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. [John 20:19-23]

Questioning weater or not you are saved is the VERY Question the HS is trying to get you to ask yourself. WHY?

Because the ONLY way to salvation is God's WAY! All of the man made myths are only that hopeful thinking of men who think they know more or perhaps better than God. either God IS in chatge or we are. the responsibility cannot be sharred.

If you'd even more evidence send me a private message. Maybe I can help?

I'll pray with and for you!

pat/PJM

yes it is interesting to see all the myths and man made beliefs in all the different churches--

i guess you have to remember if it is NOT in the TORAH -- then it is a man-made up ceremony

just remember that moses-- assembled the Torah-- and God layed out the ceremonies-- that would be and receive a blessing from--HIM

all these people "pretending" that they are receiving "spiritual grace" by performing some religious MAN-Made-UP -- ceremony and belief..

ya -sure-- there is some confusion of what Saint Paul wrote about--

as Peter said" no Torah scripture is 2 b interpreted for one's personal belief"

so now every- 1 - is interpreting all of Saint Paul's writings to their own personal belief

working4christ2

Monday, February 18, 2013

Are the Law of Moses and the Law the same Law?----Patrick j Miron--Truth can only "BE ONE" per issue. Does God WANT [and even command] you to be a "Christian" or something of HIS OWN Making;

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