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#1
Oct 15, '10, 12:55 pm
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Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
"Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not
the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a
good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
What does the "good conscience" part mean? Couldn't it be used to back up the Protestant position? Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these "baptism is necessary for salvation" verses by saying "if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation"?
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All for Jesus, all through Mary, Alex B. Please visit my Catholic blog! http://inklingsofalex.blogspot.com/ If Mary has my heart, then Jesus has my soul 
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#2
Oct 15, '10, 2:04 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
Hi Alex
This verse very cleary teaches the Catholic position on Baptism but as Catholics we must take all of scripture into consideration, and when interpreted in light of the other verses mentioned below, we can see that Baptism is indeed Salvific. Acts 2:38 (RSV) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 22:16 (RSV) 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Romans 6:3–4 (RSV) 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Colossians 2:11–13 (RSV) 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, So in light of what these verses clearly teach about Baptism (That it makes you alive spiritually and washes away your sins) we can see that in 1 Peter 3:21 that peter is teaching 1. That Baptism saves you 2. That It is not a removal of dirt from the body (A physical cleansing) but a removal of dirt from the soul. 3. That its effects are interior, after baptism we have a clear concience because we have been forgiven of all our past sins original and actual an no longer have an evil conscience, The book of hebrews says. Hebrews 10:22 (RSV) 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Through Baptism we become Children of God (1 John 3:1) and members of the Family of God, the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 Hope that helps.
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#3
Jun 21, '11, 2:37 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
Luke2445
Just wanted to say thank you so much for this answer! Ive just had a protestant friend ask me how does that fit with catholic beliefs. I could not have gotten a more perfect answer! Cheers
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#4
Jun 21, '11, 10:52 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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I think it's fairly clear that the overall objective of the verse is to compare a physical washing to a spiritual one. I'm not sure what translation you are using, but it seems a little garbled to me, which is probably causing some of your problem. I don't really see any way that "eperotema" can be translated as "examination" but I guess I'm open to someone making a case for it. The word is better understood as the "answer" or "response" to God--in this context--I guess you could say that it's a response to GOD'S examination? Hmmm....sorry I just can't get there. The "good conscience" part is not as bad--but the word "suneidesis" is more like consciousNESS or even "being" or "self-awareness". In contemporary English, we would probably say "a clear conscience." By partaking in Christ's resurrection via baptism (e.g., Romans 6) the 1 Peter verse says that the Christian's "good being"/"clear conscience"--as a result of being in Christ's Resurrection through Baptism)--is a "response" or "answer" to God. What God's demand, question or requirement is is unstated in this particular verse, but I think one could see it as a demand for righteousness. Baptized Christians have a clear conscience in this regard, not that they are sinless, but that they are cleansed in Christ's resurrection through Baptism. I would probably translate the verse (and this is pretty rough because I haven't done a ton of work and research) as something like: "Baptism is now saving you, which this (i.e., just like the flood/ark saved Noah in the previous verses) typified for you--not through the removal of dirt from the flesh, but rather through a clear conscience as a response to God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." I suppose someone that opposes infant baptism could use this verse to say that infants don't really have self-consciousness and thus Baptism applies only to adults. But since the effect (a "clear" or "good consciousness") is only the result of partaking in Christ's resurrection through Baptism I'd say that the argument would be pretty weak. Your translation's nearly erroneous use of "examination" comes very close to sounding like something that Christians should do be doing prior to Baptism--sort of a requirement like "accepting Christ", so using this translation has the potential to be very misleading in my opinion. But whatever translation you're using, it's clearly the Baptism that's doing the saving in this verse. Also, some Protestant groups (evangelical Quakers and some anabaptists, for example) see Baptism as entirely optional for the Christian.
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#5
Jun 22, '11, 4:29 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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Ver. 21. Baptism, &c. That is, the ark was a figure of baptism, which saveth you from the death of the soul; and as no one was saved from the waters of the deluge but those few eight persons who were in the ark, so no one can enter into heaven if he hath not been baptized, or hath had a desire of it when come to the use of reason. And such persons as are capable of knowing what they receive, must come with the dispositions of faith and a true repentance, which is here called the examination (literally, the interrogation[3]) of a good conscience, who therefore are examined whether they believe in one God and three Persons, &c. (Witham) --- Baptism is said to be the like form with the water by which Noe[Noah] was saved, because the one was a figure of the other. --- Not the putting away, &c. As much as to say, that baptism has not its efficacy, in order to salvation, from its washing away any bodily filth or dirt; but from its purging the conscience from sin: when accompanied with suitable dispositions in the party, to answer the interrogations made at that time, with relation to faith, the renouncing of Satan with all his works, and the obedience to God's commands. (Challoner)
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#6
Jun 22, '11, 6:49 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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The issue then become what constitutes a VALID Baptism? And the CC replies under the authorty of God Himself: [Mt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:19-22, John 14:16-17 and John 17:15-19] that The Normal form is with WATER in the name of the Blessed Tinity. BUT also vail are Baptism of Blood [martyrdom For Christ] and Baptism of Desire for those who NEVER HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW CHRIST. As to conscience: From the catechesim of the CC: 1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings. THIS APPLIES TO EVERY HUMAN PERSON, NOT ONLY WE CATHOLICS. God WIll, Because God MUST Judge us on what He permits us to know and understand; w/o consideration of what we have accepted. Denial is seen as KNOWING and choosing a position pther than GODS! HOWEVER: Baptism ONLY assures enrty into heaven UNTIL one SINS AGAIN! As soon as one sins AFTER being baptized ALL guareentes are OFF! Thus the need for The Othr Sacramnets; most espically Confession [1 Jn. 1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5:16-17, Mt. 16:19, and JOHN 20;19-23.] This position of the CC is SOLIDLY Biblical and the OSAS is NOT, and CANNOT be proven from the Bible. God Bless, Pat
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 PJM  http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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#7
Jun 23, '11, 4:11 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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The examination of our conscience is what Christians must do as we desire to claim ourselves in fellowship with Christ (St. Paul asks the same for those who are about to partake of the Lord's Supper); a "good conscience," I would imagine, is that state when we have become one with Christ (I am the Vine...)--which would, by necessity, require that we adhere to Christ's Teachings (if you Love Me you would Obey my Commandments) and His Will is made known to the Church through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Maran atha! Angel
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Have a very Merry Christmas, celebrating the Birth of the Immanuel! 
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#8
Jun 23, '11, 8:16 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
Let's look at the context:
1PET 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. 1PET 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. One word: Obedience. Noah was obedient to God when he was instructed to build the ark and carry out the additional tasks that our Lord gave to him. By his Obedience he was saved through water. Baptism is not necessary for Salvation, only Faith in Jesus Christ saves. Faith will convict your obedience to God. Saying you believe and have Faith does not complete the act of Faith alone. Faith is given to us as a gift and it manifests itself through the Spirit. Baptism reaffirms our Obedience to our Lord as an act of Faith. There are several theologies on the "Order of Salvation" or "Ordo Salutis". You can query it and read more about it. Also, before going off on other interpretations keep in mind what Peter said 7-8 verses before: 1PET 3:8 And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble: 1PET 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing. Animum debes mutare, non caelum
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#9
Jun 24, '11, 2:16 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." And JESUS SAY"S: Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." AND JESUS SAYS: Jn. 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." God Bless you, Pat
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PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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#10
Jun 25, '11, 12:57 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (St. John 3:5) ...and Scriptures give further testament of the need for Baptism: (All the people who listened, including the tax collectors, and who were baptized with the baptism of John, acknowledged the righteousness of God; but the Pharisees and scholars of the law, who were not baptized by him, rejected the plan of God for themselves.) ...as you can see it is the other way around--once we are Baptized the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the Word of God; the fellowship with God begins at the beginning; yet when people choose to reject God's Plan they run on vapors, not the Holy Spirit so they cannot understand Christ! Nicodemus did not have a hard time understanding physical equations; he simply could not see the need for Baptism, along with his fellow religious; it took Jesus' private Tutoring to get him to understand: 'must be born of water and spirit!' Maran atha! Angel
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Have a very Merry Christmas, celebrating the Birth of the Immanuel!
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#11
Jun 25, '11, 1:11 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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Maran atha! Angel
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Have a very Merry Christmas, celebrating the Birth of the Immanuel!
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#12
Jun 25, '11, 10:38 pm
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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Could it not be that water is used in the same text as: John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22. Or, Jesus did make reference to "Living Water" in John 4:10 and John 7:37-39. Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.
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#13
Jun 26, '11, 12:47 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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Why? 1) Simply because Christ is God, and He founded His Church to teach us His truths. 2) She gave us the Bible and only She can interpret it correctly. Meandering within the Sacred Scriptures without Her teaching is a recipe for confusion and error. Some 50,000 Protestant sects attest to this – all teaching something different, which is why they exist.
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#14
Jun 26, '11, 9:32 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." CAN ONLY MEAN BAPTISM: Luke.3: 3 "and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Col.2: 12 "and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." 1Pet.3: 21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Both references to "Living Water" are expressions of the EFFECTS of Baptism. "I AM" living water refers to ALL savation MUST flow through Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. John.13: "Jesus said to him, [b]"He who has bathed does not need to wash[/B], except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you." NOTE: what I highlighted refers to having ALREADY been Baptism; not dirty feet. John 15: 1-5 Is of course part of the "Washing of the feet at the Last Supper" discourse.... "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing" "Abides In Me" means: knows, accepts and APPLLIES what I have taught. Christ teaching of the absolute need for Baptism is part of this knowledge. 1st. Cor. 6: 11 "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." EACH and EVERY benefit listed here is attributrible to the EFFECTS of Baptism. Heb. 10:22 "let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water". Yet another passage referencing the effects of Baptism. .... Acts.2: 38 "And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". I hope my friend this clarifies the issue for you? I'm curious why do think John 3:5 has a meaning other than what it obviously means. This is from Protestant Matt. Henry's Bible Commentary of this verse: "The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water. It is also probable that Christ had reference to the ordinance of baptism. Not that all those, and those only, that are baptized, are saved; but without that new birth which is wrought by the Spirit, and signified by baptism, none shall be subjects of the kingdom of heaven. The same word signifies both the wind and the Spirit. The wind bloweth where it listeth for us; God directs it. God Bless, Pat
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PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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#15
Jun 26, '11, 11:25 am
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Re: Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21
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I like the rendering of 1Peter 3:21 as found in the RSV: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as the removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The NASB has "good conscience." I understand Peter to mean that you go into the waters of baptism not to bathe your body, but to bathe your conscience. Baptism is a prayer, an appeal to God to clear your conscience. And how do you know your appeal will be answered? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't think anyone would say we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without having our sins forgiven. Everybody agrees on that. So, how do we have our sins forgiven? Peter answers that question at Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." 1Peter 3:21 repeats this idea, but goes into a little more detail as to the mechansim of how baptism works. Faith saves us because if we have faith in Jesus we will do what Jesus asks--we will have our sins forgiven through the mechansim of baptism, and then we will follow and obey Him. Of course, if we don't have faith in Jesus, we won't do any of these things! |
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