Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation?

it says in 1Cori:

1Cori 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.
1Cori 3:12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
1Cori 3:13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.
1Cori 3:14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cori 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Each of us will suffer loss as chaff is destroyed on the last day. It is "the day of the Lord" and not "every day" which St. Paul speaks of here. And it is from this that the doctrine of "purgatory" (burning away of chaff) comes.

Quote:

Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our "choices" might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL.

But the question is, do they have fruit -- not "do they make mistakes"; for St. John also says:

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death (not deadly), he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

It is these sins, "not" unto death, not "deadly" or "mortal" in their wounds which are to be burned up on the "day of the Lord".

If a man have nothing but sins and chaff, then it is impossible that all off them are not deadly -- but if one has sins and fruits, it is possible that the sins are not deadly.
It is these sins, on the last day, which shall be covered by the justice of Christ and his oil will burn them off revealing the good things that are left. It is the anointing of the sick, with oil, which likewise prepares the sins for removal of a person near death -- and the soul of the sick person becomes ready to be healed.

No one knows what the ultimate predestination of a sinful person is; we, perhaps, see their predestination into his church here on earth -- and someday we expect to see whether they bore fruit and were predestined to heaven or not. But that is all that can be known before their death -- unless their fruit be manifest early; and the church proclaim it.

But, why, when it gives him Joy -- would God the Son not offer the chance to be with him forever to every one? If he offered not the chance, they would not be guilty of rejecting him; and even he himself says of the ignorant "If I had not come, they had no sin....". (But now I have come....).

It is only to those who sin continuously, that Jesus says "If you sin (continuously) against the Holy Spirit, there is no forgiveness .... nor in the age to come."

Peace to you; look harder to your own salvation than at others faults. Today has enough evil of its' own.

#6   Oct 7, '11, 9:33 pm

Matt Tiza New Member   Join Date: October 4, 2011 Posts: 57 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? I like the directions that this thread has taken. Could it be that we are both wheat and chaff insomuch as we have to shed our sinful natures (the chaff) to allow the salvation of our good fruits (the wheat)? Perhaps some are more wheat than chaff or vice versa and that our own good fruits or vices determine our eternal fates? I think that this is consistent with Catholic teaching. God's mercy is infinite and His judgment is absolute. As a loving Creator He would not will all to salvation if it were not possible (e.g. "in my Father's house there are many rooms"). Our devotion to God is our submission to and acceptance of His Will, as revealed through His Word, by our own free will. Even though He views all time and space in an instant and knows the inner workings of our hearts and the results of our decisions, it is still an act of glorification to Him when we act righteously.

#7   Oct 12, '11, 12:32 pm

Matt Tiza New Member   Join Date: October 4, 2011 Posts: 57 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Shedding our sinful natures into the fire is what purgation is about. It is necessary for salvation. I sincerely hope that our Protestant brothers and sisters will learn to accept Purgatory though, according to them, it is not directly described in Scripture. Sometimes you just have to trust the guys who wrote The Book that they know what they're talking about

#8   Oct 12, '11, 12:48 pm

Blossoming New Member   Join Date: October 9, 2011 Posts: 179 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? God created man with free will. If we did not have free will how would God know if we had chosen to love, glorify and follow Him. Because of that, we are all born capable of attaining salvation, but we have to choose it. Those who choose to love Christ and follow his teachings are wheat. Those who know God exists and deliberately choose to turn against Him, are chaff. God doesn't choose this for them and it makes Christ sorrowful, but without free will our love of God would be valueless. People make their own choices. All day long, every day even every minute, we make choices on worshipping God through loving acts or not in our everyday dealings. We make many choices and sometimes we choose well, sometimes we choose poorly. When we repent and confess we ask to be brought back into a state of grace. Confession and other sacraments help us build an internal structure with Christ's aid that help us to make our choices good more and more often. Ultimately, we ourselves determine whether we shall be wheat or chaff.

#9   Oct 12, '11, 1:31 pm

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,507 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Quote: =Matt Tiza;8433144]Consider Matthew 3:8-12. Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4 Now what do you think? Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation? Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our "choices" might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL. Hi Matt, The idea that a "Just God" could, would or permit any form of "predestrination" contradicts the very nature of God Himself and denies humanity the opportunity to apply and use the very gifts that make us "in the image og God." The chaff are those who FREEELY choose to be "chaff.," either one who denies God completely ot equally evil: makes god into there very own image of god; forming god into alter-selves; rather than permitting God in humility to form and CONFROM them into imgaes by ones life choices of God- Himself. The wheat are those humble enough to permit God "to be in charge" of there lives. Which means doing EVERYTHING the way God teaches; ignoring the thousands of man-made alternatives to a single truth; and following fully those Christ Choose to lead, teach and retain the one key to heaven. Amen! God Bless, Pat __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#10   Oct 13, '11, 5:53 am

StevieD Junior Member   Join Date: April 28, 2008 Posts: 451 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Today is the anniversary of the last of the Fatima apparitions and the miracle of the sun. During the apparitions, Our Lady was reported as saying that 'many souls go to hell..' because no-one prays for them and that the main reason for damnation is sexual immorality. I know that we are not required to believe private revelations but it would take a brave soul to reject this one in my view. __________________ Miraculous Crucifix of Limpias Jesus Christ said, " This is my Body. " You say, " No. It is not His Body!" Who am I to believe? I prefer to believe Jesus Christ.-- Bl. Dominic Barberi

#11   Oct 13, '11, 6:57 am

fhansen Regular Member   Join Date: November 11, 2007 Posts: 5,229 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Quote: Originally Posted by Matt Tiza Consider Matthew 3:8-12. Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4 Now what do you think? Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation? Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our "choices" might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL. We all start out with a lot of chaff. The NC is all about change-the changes we cooperate with God to make in us so we’ll turn out to be wheat-or not. He wants these changes, this sanctification, so we'll be saved, but we can reject His will. Then, finally, God will separate the two. __________________ "This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections." - Saint Augustine "It is love alone that gives worth to all things." - St. Teresa of Avila

#12   Oct 13, '11, 7:28 am

TimothyH Regular Member   Join Date: March 26, 2010 Posts: 5,853

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Quote: Originally Posted by Matt Tiza Consider Matthew 3:8-12. Quote: 8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. It's not really relevant to the topic but I wonder what translation that is. It should read "Fruit worthy of repentance", and "Baptize you in water unto repentance", not penance. -Tim-

#13   Oct 13, '11, 12:34 pm

Betyourlife New Member   Join Date: April 7, 2011 Posts: 8 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? Some saints had a very pessimistic view and believed very few will be saved. Other more happy saints believed most will be saved. I tend to side with the positive siblings and hope most of us will be with Papa in heaven. Purgatory is the reason we all can have hope. But don't shoot for purgatory, you just might miss! . Also, in a Medjugorge message (private revelation) Mary said that most souls go to Purgatory, 2nd greatest number to hell and the fewest go straight to heaven. An optimistic equation could be 90% go to Purgatory, 6% go to hell and 4% go straight to heaven.

#14   Oct 13, '11, 1:26 pm

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,507 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation? By-pass the Saints opinions and take the advice from Jesus Himself. The Narrow gate is not simply a metaphore; it's FACT. Unless your a member of a religious community; of ALL the people you know, and know off.... How many are LIKELY to get to heaven if they were to be called home by God right now? Then ADD to your guess the FACT that in the entire bible; never does God permit belief in more than Himself; INSIST UPON ONLY One set of faith beliefs [not one set per church],and factor in that Christ founded ONLY One Church, and gave the Key to heaven Only to Peter; because the RCC is Christ gift to humanity; and the GATE [singular] to heaven.... READ Matthew chapter 7 carefully. Jesus warns that not ALL who shout "Lord, Lord" will in fact get to heaven; BUT ONLY those who do the will of My Father[Me]. ... This too is not a myth, but FACT. The potential for human salvaton is GREAT. BUT not many will pay even the meger price Christ demands fo admission. Why? PRIDE, Sloth, Lust, Greed, Envey, Anger, and other man-made [with Satans help]...gods. God Bless, Pat __________________ PJM