working4christ2

brb3 · an 24, '13, 2:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

Please note that the requirement for Baptism did not come about until after the Resurrection. So, as Hebrew people, obeying the commandments of God, John and Mary both fell under the old covenant with Moses and the Children of Abraham.

Moses and Elijah were never baptized, yet the Church regards them as Saints.

Yes, they had OT circumcision, for the males ....what was requirement for women ?

Now, Trinitarian water baptism became the Norm on that first Pentecost / birth of NT Church.

brb3 · #32 Jan 24, '13, 2:32 pm

Which means Mary & John's receipt of HS and their Fully Graced status is beyond/outside our NT norms. John never knew the Church, but Mary did.

So, PJM ...

WE ARE BOTH WRONG !

Evan · #33 Jan 24, '13, 3:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brb3

Yes, they had OT circumcision, for the males ....what was requirement for women ?

Now, Trinitarian water baptism became the Norm on that first Pentecost / birth of NT Church.

That was one of the advantages of the new Israel. Women and men were equally qualified to sacramentally enter into the Church covenant.

In OT religion women were associated with a husband or parents. There was no covenantal sign.

patrick457 · #34 Jan 24, '13, 3:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

BRB has it right.

John was given the equivalent of baptism in his mother's womb, when the voice of Mary came to Elizabeth's ears and John lept for joy. This was John's justification and sanctification, which was acomplished by the power of Jesus through the voice of Mary, prior to John's birth.

Patrick is also correct. The ritual immersion which was taking place was a purification bath called a Mikveh. Jews still practice it. One confesses sin and is ritually purified by immersion in "Living" AKA running water.

-Tim-

Yes. Miqveh ("a collection") BTW refers to the pool; the practice of full-body immersion itself is called tevilah. Generally speaking you immerse yourself in said pool whenever you become ritually unclean due to some reason or other (menstruation and other discharge of bodily fluids, childbirth, skin diseases, contact with a corpse or a grave, etc.). Immersion could also be performed during certain occasions (like the eve of Sabbath and Yom Kippur) as a means to purify oneself.

The general requirement for a miqveh is that they must have enough water to cover a single person, and that the water must be 'living' water (water freely running from a source: water from natural springs or wells, rainwater, snow, ice, and hail are all valid) as opposed to 'drawn' water.

Miqvaoth, as mentioned, could be found everywhere: some might have a communal miqveh, others (especially the wealthy or the priests) might have one in their house. Considering that no unclean person could enter the Temple area, there are also a lot of such pools in Jerusalem, especially in the vicinity of the Temple Mount.

Miqveh (Magdala)

Miqveh (Qumran)

Miqvaot near the Temple (Jerusalem)

Miqveh (Bat Ayin)

Miqveh Cave (Ein-Gedi)

Miqveh (Herodium)

PJM · #35 Jan 27, '13, 2:56 pm

Quote:

=brb3;10279802]Yes, they had OT circumcision, for the males ....what was requirement for women ?

Now, Trinitarian water baptism became the Norm on that first Pentecost / birth of NT Church.

Women were ASSUMED and Included through the husband or father to be included in the OT Covenant.

Rozell1 · #36 Feb 10, '13, 8:24 pm

In Acts, it says the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus; is it sufficient just to baptize in the name of Jesus or does it need the Trinitarian blessing? I was having this discussion with a protestant and it left me thinking if the disciples actually followed Jesus' commandment to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

philv · #37 Feb 10, '13, 9:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneofmany

Did John the Baptist get baptized? Who did it or did he baptize himself? When Jesus came to be baptized, why didn't John ask Jesus to baptize him?

This is "way out there", but perhaps he was to be born at the time of Christ, he was already baptized before being born "in some way". Then he started baptizing later on. Or, he baptized himself in the waters while praying. But overall, I don't think scripture mentions.

1patrickj · #38 Feb 11, '13, 1:10 pm

thanks -- for this thread

it is interesting to see how the development of false beliefs are developed,

i have studied under a few Hebrew roots scholars--some of the answers show why Saint Paul warned about believing myths and traditions of men..

kind a like Valentine day, as some one how it came about and you get many different beliefs. duh?? maybe if it sounds good. it must be true..

it's been the tradition for years to believe --"fill-in-da-blank" so it must be true.

Hermeneutics (/hɜrməˈnjuːtɪks/), broadly, is the art and science of text interpretation.
Exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation of a text, especially of a holy scripture, such as of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, the Talmud, the Midrash, the Qur'an, etc. An exegete is a practitioner of this science, and the adjectival form is exegetic.

The word exegesis means "to draw the meaning out of" a given text. Exegesis may be contrasted with eisegesis, which means to read one's own interpretation into a given text. In general, exegesis presumes an attempt to view the text objectively, while eisegesis implies more subjectivity.

One may encounter the terms exegesis and hermeneutics used interchangeably; however, there remains a distinction.

PJM · #39 Feb 11, '13, 3:47 pm

Quote:

=Rozell1;10342275]In Acts, it says the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus; is it sufficient just to baptize in the name of Jesus or does it need the Trinitarian blessing? I was having this discussion with a protestant and it left me thinking if the disciples actually followed Jesus' commandment to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19-20

AND JESUS SAY'S " [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world"

tommytom · #40 Feb 18, '13, 9:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozell1

In Acts, it says the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus; is it sufficient just to baptize in the name of Jesus or does it need the Trinitarian blessing? I was having this discussion with a protestant and it left me thinking if the disciples actually followed Jesus' commandment to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

well my experience is that " if it does not lead to Jesus baptising you with the Holy Spirit" then all you did was get "wet"

1sam10, acts19,acts 10 is an example of what happens .. most protestants and roman catholics weem to "just get wet"

1answer · #41 Today, 8:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBj

See patrick457's post #10. The mikvah could have been considered a sort of baptism. And the word "baptism" doesn't necessarily mean "Christian baptism;" for starters, John's baptism was not a Christian baptism.

I don't know. It just appeared in the Gospels, with John preaching repentance and then dipping repentant sinners in the waters of the Jordan River.

thanks -- for this string -- to demenstrate the difficulity of recognizing that the mikvah- in the Hebrew tradition was was being performed by John - as also referenced in hebrews 6- where it references moveing on to the foundations o "baptisms"
it is necessary to to read about the "hebrew roots" of this God made ceremony,

to avoid developing imaginary and man made understanding of what the scripture means.

as peter said "be mikvah in the water of repentence and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

this is why paul said in acts 19 what were you "baptised" or mikvah in?

so he got them mikvah in the Holy Spirit-- and there is a difference-- between the two baptism's or mikvah- other wise -- why bother

so -- obviously-- john the baptis -- what Mikvah in water as was the tridition in the religious ceremony-- i suggest that the readers of this string-- research and learn what the baptism or mikvah is all about--

so you don't become mis-lead or deceived

working4christ2

Monday, March 4, 2013

who baptised john the baptist

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