baptism of john the baptist and patrick j miron deception #2

JM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Centeral Florida Posts: 8,522 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: =oneofmany;10273350]Did John the Baptist get baptized? Who did it or did he baptize himself? When Jesus came to be baptized, why didn't John ask Jesus to baptize him? YES in the extrodinaty fom of Martyrdom. He gave his life for Christ! Baptism of Blood __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#17     Jan 23, '13, 4:25 pm

aicirt Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2008 Posts: 3,324 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by patrick457 That baptism was important because Jesus was important. Besides, why would John have knowledge of a mystery that wasn't even properly revealed or defined yet? John 3: 22.........Christ is baptizing at the same time as John is baptizing but neither are baptizing in the name of the Trinity. So when was the baptism as we know it inititiated?

#18     Jan 23, '13, 4:51 pm

patrick457 Veteran Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Location: 東日本 Posts: 10,933 Religion: Catholic: sinner in need of salvation

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by aicirt John 3: 22.........Christ is baptizing at the same time as John is baptizing but neither are baptizing in the name of the Trinity. So when was the baptism as we know it inititiated? I'm not totally sure (somebody correct me), but I believe that it would be after the Resurrection, when Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As an aside (tongue-in-cheek moment), I have a hard time imagining Jesus using the Trintarian formula. "In the name of the Father, me, and the Holy Spirit"? __________________ Please pray for me. That's the least you could do. "What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him, visit him every morning and test him every moment?"

#19     Jan 23, '13, 6:00 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Location: The land of evil spirits Posts: 19,172 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by patrick457 Baptism as a practice would have been derived from Jewish purificatory immersion. Now the concept which links it with repentance is something that was peculiar to John. Who knows? Perhaps he received inspiration. Luke 3:1-4 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 3 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina; 2 Under the high priests Annas and Caiphas; the word of the Lord was made unto John, the son of Zachary, in the desert. 3 And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins; 4 As it was written in the book of the sayings of Isaias the prophet: A voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. For this reason, John is known as the last prophet of the Old Testament. He introduced the concept of repentance for the forgiveness of sin, whereas ritual sacrifice had made atonement under the law of Moses. __________________ Forum wisdom consists not in those threads to which one subscribes, but rather, in those to which one does not subscribe.

#20     Jan 23, '13, 6:11 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Location: The land of evil spirits Posts: 19,172 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by patrick457 I'm not totally sure (somebody correct me), but I believe that it would be after the Resurrection, when Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As an aside (tongue-in-cheek moment), I have a hard time imagining Jesus using the Trintarian formula. "In the name of the Father, me, and the Holy Spirit"? Neither can I imagine a third, pre-ascension baptism. Peter it is who teaches that baptism now saves, cleansing of sin and clearing our conscience (1 Peter 3:21). He must have received that in teaching from our Lord,, although he also received direct revelation - knowing where Christ went between His death and resurrection (1 Peter 3:19-20, 1 Peter 4:6). Nevertheless, it is good that Matthew recorded the formula, as some today make the mistake of baptizing in the name of Jesus alone. Their "teachers" apparently forget that there were two "competing" baptisms, that of John and that of Jesus, and that the ancient terminology was used only to differentiate between them. Jesus alone provided the formula in Matthew 28. __________________ Forum wisdom consists not in those threads to which one subscribes, but rather, in those to which one does not subscribe.

#21     Jan 24, '13, 9:34 am

brb3 Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2010 Posts: 3,188 Religion: catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Does church teach Mary was Baptized in water ? No, it does not. MARY fully graced from her conception. But, John too was fully graced, IN THE WOMB, baptized in his mom Elizabeth 's maternal amniotic fluid ( water). MAYBE, Mary was Baptized too ... same way John was !

#22     Jan 24, '13, 9:45 am

TimothyH Regular Member   Join Date: March 26, 2010 Posts: 5,921

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by brb3 Does church teach Mary was Baptized in water ? No, it does not. MARY fully graced from her conception. But, John too was fully graced, IN THE WOMB, baptized in his mom Elizabeth 's maternal amniotic fluid ( water). MAYBE, Mary was Baptized too ... same way John was ! BRB has it right. John was given the equivalent of baptism in his mother's womb, when the voice of Mary came to Elizabeth's ears and John lept for joy. This was John's justification and sanctification, which was acomplished by the power of Jesus through the voice of Mary, prior to John's birth. Patrick is also correct. The ritual immersion which was taking place was a purification bath called a Mikveh. Jews still practice it. One confesses sin and is ritually purified by immersion in "Living" AKA running water. -Tim-

#23     Jan 24, '13, 10:02 am

brb3 Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2010 Posts: 3,188 Religion: catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by TimothyH BRB has it right. John was given the equivalent of baptism in his mother's womb, when the voice of Mary came to Elizabeth's ears and John lept for joy. This was John's justification and sanctification, which was acomplished by the power of Jesus through the voice of Mary, prior to John's birth. Patrick is also correct. The ritual immersion which was taking place was a purification bath called a Mikveh. Jews still practice it. One confesses sin and is ritually purified by immersion in "Living" AKA running water. -Tim- Testify to the truth brother Tim !!! Occasionally I stumble on a truth ..

#24     Jan 24, '13, 10:17 am

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Centeral Florida Posts: 8,522 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: =brb3;10278713]Does church teach Mary was Baptized in water ? No, it does not. MARY fully graced from her conception. But, John too was fully graced, IN THE WOMB, baptized in his mom Elizabeth 's maternal amniotic fluid ( water). MAYBE, Mary was Baptized too ... same way John was ! NO she was not Mary HAD NO NEED TO BE BAPTIZED and therefore was not. __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#25     Jan 24, '13, 10:53 am

brb3 Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2010 Posts: 3,188 Religion: catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by PJM NO she was not Mary HAD NO NEED TO BE BAPTIZED and therefore was not. But, maybe .. it was FITTING, that she be ! From my inquires on this topic, I'm told we don't know for sure . ...so, I'm curious where you got your dogmatic NO answer ? Regarding John, he too we don't know for sure, but he did receive HS, while SUBMERGED in maternal water. Would you not see/appreciate the beauty of that confirmation he received ?

#26     Jan 24, '13, 11:01 am

dee burk Junior Member   Join Date: October 28, 2012 Posts: 149 Religion: Conversion in progress

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by brb3 Does church teach Mary was Baptized in water ? No, it does not. MARY fully graced from her conception. But, John too was fully graced, IN THE WOMB, baptized in his mom Elizabeth 's maternal amniotic fluid ( water). MAYBE, Mary was Baptized too ... same way John was ! this was what i was about to enter until i saw brb3 already had it...

#27     Jan 24, '13, 11:41 am

Evan Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,869 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by brb3 But, maybe .. it was FITTING, that she be ! From my inquires on this topic, I'm told we don't know for sure . ...so, I'm curious where you got your dogmatic NO answer ? Regarding John, he too we don't know for sure, but he did receive HS, while SUBMERGED in maternal water. Would you not see/appreciate the beauty of that confirmation he received ? Amniotic Fluid is not water. It is not relevant to Baptism (the sacrament). This is a very novel notion and no historical precedent. It is not found prior to the start of the evangelical movement. Nowhere in Scripture is natural birth referred to as being born “of water” - this is a desperate interpretation designed to deny the simple truth of Baptism. __________________ =========== Evan

#28     Jan 24, '13, 11:54 am

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Centeral Florida Posts: 8,522 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: =brb3;10278973]But, maybe .. it was FITTING, that she be ! From my inquires on this topic, I'm told we don't know for sure . ...so, I'm curious where you got your dogmatic NO answer ? Regarding John, he too we don't know for sure, but he did receive HS, while SUBMERGED in maternal water. Would you not see/appreciate the beauty of that confirmation he received ? 1st. Mary Please check out this site. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/re...marian-dogmas/ There are four Infallible DOGMA"S concerning Mary; eaach of then in a slightly difffernt manner attest to wht what I shared HAS TO BE true. If you have futher questins please contact me and we can discuss them. I don't want to derail this String as far a John goes we can know that he was martyred and therefore RECEIVED 'baptism in Blood" Here's the proof: Matthew 14:10 "And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison". Mark 6:16 "Which Herod hearing, said: John whom I beheaded, he is risen again from the dead" From our Catholic Catechism: 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. I hope this resolves your uncertanities? God Bless you, pat/PJM __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#29     Jan 24, '13, 1:20 pm

brb3 Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2010 Posts: 3,188 Religion: catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by PJM 1st. Mary Please check out this site. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/re...marian-dogmas/ There are four Infallible DOGMA"S concerning Mary; eaach of then in a slightly difffernt manner attest to wht what I shared HAS TO BE true. If you have futher questins please contact me and we can discuss them. I don't want to derail this String as far a John goes we can know that he was martyred and therefore RECEIVED 'baptism in Blood" Here's the proof: Matthew 14:10 "And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison". Mark 6:16 "Which Herod hearing, said: John whom I beheaded, he is risen again from the dead" From our Catholic Catechism: 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. I hope this resolves your uncertanities? God Bless you, pat/PJM On 1258, ..the operative words "w/o having received Baptism" ..... so, does it really apply to John ? Recall John suggested that Christ Baptize him, and he didn't. Maybe Christ knew he already had, in the womb ??? Or, maybe Christ knew John's would later come by blood, as you believe .. But, as Peter taught, water baptism is our APPEAL to God to make us clean of all sin, to Fully Grace us. Now, since John was FILLED WITH HS, while UNDER WATER in mom Elizabeth, ....I think I have every right to claim he was not in need of a second baptism by Christ, which Christ didn't, knowing John was FULLY GRACED ALREADY !! We both know his parents had already DEDICATED JOHN TO THE LORD. Thus, they were giving full consent to the Lord regarding John, and his FETAL baptism...brought about by the appearing of the Mother of the Lord to Elizabeth. John rejoiced upon Mary's arrival ! Has there ever been such an event before ....our first FETAL Baptism, effected by HS, on Mary's account. Yes, speculation on my part.... but, reasoned speculation!

#30     Jan 24, '13, 1:38 pm

Evan Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,869 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Please note that the requirement for Baptism did not come about until after the Resurrection. So, as Hebrew people, obeying the commandments of God, John and Mary both fell under the old covenant with Moses and the Children of Abraham. Moses and Elijah were never baptized, yet the Church regards them as Saints.