deception roman catholic -Who Baptized John the Baptist? meet patrick j miron #3

Jan 23, '13, 2:21 am

oneofmany Junior Member   Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 342 Religion: Catholic

Who Baptized John the Baptist? Did John the Baptist get baptized? Who did it or did he baptize himself? When Jesus came to be baptized, why didn't John ask Jesus to baptize him?

#2     Jan 23, '13, 3:42 am

DaveBj Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Cullman, Alabama Posts: 5,559 Religion: Catholic, Tiber Swim Team Class of 2005

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? We don't know. Period. We don't know that John ever was baptized, altho my guess is that he might have been, by the Essenes. With regard to your last question, John did say that Jesus should be the one baptizing him. __________________ DaveBj I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order that I may understand, for of this I feel sure, that, if I did not believe, I would not understand. -- St. Anselm of Canterbury --

#3     Jan 23, '13, 3:52 am

aicirt Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2008 Posts: 3,324 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj We don't know. Period. We don't know that John ever was baptized, altho my guess is that he might have been, by the Essenes. With regard to your last question, John did say that Jesus should be the one baptizing him. Why would you think he was baptized by the Essenes? If they had been baptized, they would have become Christian yet we think of them as Jews. Where did the idea of baptism come from? Was it a revelation from God and, if so, when did that happen?

#4     Jan 23, '13, 7:53 am

Zekariya Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,478 Religion: Coptic/Melkite Catholic Christian

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? John's baptism was not in the Trinitarian formula and was of a different purpose than Christian baptism. __________________ "Did you commit sin? Enter the Church, repent for your sin, for here is the physician, not the judge. Here one is not investigated; one receives remission of sins." - St John Chrysostom

#5     Jan 23, '13, 7:57 am

Zekariya Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,478 Religion: Coptic/Melkite Catholic Christian

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? I like this post from another thread: Quote: Originally Posted by mdgspencer The baptism of John was a ritual that was not meant to give the grace of God. The same word, baptism, was used in both cases, but baptism in each case was different. Pagan religions also baptized without giving God's grace, and John's baptism simply answered the same basic human spiritual need to feel purified. It did not involve the act of God Christian baptism always involves. __________________ "Did you commit sin? Enter the Church, repent for your sin, for here is the physician, not the judge. Here one is not investigated; one receives remission of sins." - St John Chrysostom

#6     Jan 23, '13, 8:07 am

aicirt Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2008 Posts: 3,324 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by Zekariya John's baptism was not in the Trinitarian formula and was of a different purpose than Christian baptism. What was the purpose of his baptism? And how do we know what formula he used? If it was in the Trinitarian formula, then when was the actual sacrament of baptism initiated and by whom?

#7     Jan 23, '13, 8:09 am

Zekariya Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,478 Religion: Coptic/Melkite Catholic Christian

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by aicirt What was the purpose of his baptism? And how do we know what formula he used? If it was in the Trinitarian formula, then when was the actual sacrament of baptism initiated and by whom? John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It was NOT in the Trinitarian formula and it has nothing to do with Christian baptism instituted by Christ. The word, baptism, means immerse and that is all that John did. __________________ "Did you commit sin? Enter the Church, repent for your sin, for here is the physician, not the judge. Here one is not investigated; one receives remission of sins." - St John Chrysostom

#8     Jan 23, '13, 9:44 am

aicirt Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2008 Posts: 3,324 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by Zekariya John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It was NOT in the Trinitarian formula and it has nothing to do with Christian baptism instituted by Christ. The word, baptism, means immerse and that is all that John did. When did Christ baptize?

#9     Jan 23, '13, 11:29 am

kkollwitz Junior Member   Join Date: December 1, 2004 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 433 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? When did Jesus baptize? Check John 3: 22 "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized." 26 And they came to John, and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him." But not for long, see John 4: 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again to Galilee. __________________ I catechize 6th graders straight from the Bible: https://www.createspace.com/3835986

#10     Jan 23, '13, 3:10 pm

patrick457 Veteran Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Location: 東日本 Posts: 10,933 Religion: Catholic: sinner in need of salvation

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj We don't know. Period. We don't know that John ever was baptized, altho my guess is that he might have been, by the Essenes. With regard to your last question, John did say that Jesus should be the one baptizing him. The Essenes did not 'baptize' in the Christian sense. They partook of ritual immersions in a miqveh, but then again so did all Jews at the time. The only difference is that the Essenes apparently did it several times a day. __________________ Please pray for me. That's the least you could do. "What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him, visit him every morning and test him every moment?" Last edited by patrick457; Jan 23, '13 at 3:25 pm.

#11     Jan 23, '13, 3:25 pm

DaveBj Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Cullman, Alabama Posts: 5,559 Religion: Catholic, Tiber Swim Team Class of 2005

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by aicirt Why would you think he was baptized by the Essenes? If they had been baptized, they would have become Christian yet we think of them as Jews. Where did the idea of baptism come from? Was it a revelation from God and, if so, when did that happen? See patrick457's post #10. The mikvah could have been considered a sort of baptism. And the word "baptism" doesn't necessarily mean "Christian baptism;" for starters, John's baptism was not a Christian baptism. I don't know. It just appeared in the Gospels, with John preaching repentance and then dipping repentant sinners in the waters of the Jordan River. __________________ DaveBj I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order that I may understand, for of this I feel sure, that, if I did not believe, I would not understand. -- St. Anselm of Canterbury --

#12     Jan 23, '13, 3:45 pm

patrick457 Veteran Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Location: 東日本 Posts: 10,933 Religion: Catholic: sinner in need of salvation

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj See patrick457's post #10. The mikvah could have been considered a sort of baptism. And the word "baptism" doesn't necessarily mean "Christian baptism;" for starters, John's baptism was not a Christian baptism. I don't know. It just appeared in the Gospels, with John preaching repentance and then dipping repentant sinners in the waters of the Jordan River. Josephus is apparently intrigued by John's baptism and understands it first as a purification of the body, playing the same role as the miqveh. The spiritual question involved is whether John has the power to forgive sins, perhaps with the aid of water that has mystical properties. Josephus strongly denies that John claimed any such power: the washing was an outward physical manifestation of a spiritual commitment to repentance and performing good works. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God, and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the soul was already thoroughly purified by right actions. Which is somewhat close to what the gospels say: In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." [...] Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." The other differences between normal ritual baths and John's own is that while miqvaoth could be found almost everywhere, John holds his exclusively in different parts of the Jordan river (full of symbolic significance) and that while normal immersions are usually self-administered, in John's case you apparently needed him to perform. __________________ Please pray for me. That's the least you could do. "What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him, visit him every morning and test him every moment?"

#13     Jan 23, '13, 4:00 pm

patrick457 Veteran Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Location: 東日本 Posts: 10,933 Religion: Catholic: sinner in need of salvation

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by aicirt Where did the idea of baptism come from? Was it a revelation from God and, if so, when did that happen? Baptism as a practice would have been derived from Jewish purificatory immersion. Now the concept which links it with repentance is something that was peculiar to John. Who knows? Perhaps he received inspiration. __________________ Please pray for me. That's the least you could do. "What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him, visit him every morning and test him every moment?"

#14     Jan 23, '13, 4:07 pm

aicirt Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2008 Posts: 3,324 Religion: Catholic

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by Zekariya John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It was NOT in the Trinitarian formula and it has nothing to do with Christian baptism instituted by Christ. The word, baptism, means immerse and that is all that John did. Okay but after John baptizes Christ in Luke 3:21,,,,,,,After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in fodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son, with you I am well pleased." Here's the Trinity. If He wasn't baptized in the Trinity, why was the baptism so profound that all three persons of the Trinity appeared?

#15     Jan 23, '13, 4:18 pm

patrick457 Veteran Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Location: 東日本 Posts: 10,933 Religion: Catholic: sinner in need of salvation

Re: Who Baptized John the Baptist? Quote: Originally Posted by aicirt Okay but after John baptizes Christ in Luke 3:21,,,,,,,After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in fodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son, with you I am well pleased." Here's the Trinity. If He wasn't baptized in the Trinity, why was the baptism so profound that all three persons of the Trinity appeared? That baptism was important because Jesus was important. Besides, why would John have knowledge of a mystery that wasn't even properly revealed or defined yet? __________________ Please pray for me. That's the least you could do. "What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him, visit him every morning and test him every moment?"